Moved this back to chat.
In reply to Michael Smith who said
> > It becomes the default editor for everyone period, something I don't think
> > is a good idea at all.
> It becomes the default editor for _root_. FCOL, will people at least
> try to remember what the issues here are?
Maybe I missed something here. Wasn't the change to the skel files. If
it's only root's EDITOR that gets changed I find it an even sillier
decision since as an ordinary user you'll still be using vi !!!!!
> > Personally, I don't give a damn if some newbie gets scared off Unix
> > because it doesn't have notepad. As I've already said, if they can't
> > get over that hurdle then they can forget it because the rest of the
> > stuff they have to learn is much scarier. I think that some people have
> Bollocks. You've obviously been away from the coalface _much_ too long.
Ehh? I've got no idea what you're alluding to here?
> No, it's not so easy. But at the same time, it _is_ a _shitload_ easier
> if the tool that you're using to edit all these files doesn't require
> a flowing white beard and a damaged forebrain to understand.
I agree, I'm not forcing people to use vi, there are lots of editors
available under FreeBSD but I'm serious in saying that if you can't
overcome the hurdle of not having a DOS like editor then Unix really
isn't for you. No matter how much you try and claim otherwise Unix is
not a system for the casual computer user, you do need considerable
computing knowledge to use it.
> > Given that all these editors have always existed it must amount to something
> > that no-one who has stuck with Unix actually use anything other than vi or
> > emacs.
> Until fairly recently, Unix was the exclusive preserve of hackers and
> serious programmers. In the last year or two this has changed, and people
> with some experience elsewhere are giving up on other systems and moving in.
> This is a Good Thing. We should _help_ them. This is a _small_
> concession to make, and one that will be of immense value.
Unix is very good at a number of things, ISP's prefer it and developers
prefer it because it does those jobs well. One of the *good* things
about it from a developer's point of view is a decent editor, either vi
or emacs for doing *development*. Using Borland environments drive me
nuts, I work much faster using the command line and vi. Using notepad
and word are also much slower than using a powerfull editor like vi
(substitute emacs if you dislike moded editors, that's not really the
issue). I don't understand this burning desire by some people to make
Unix accessible to absolutely anyone. It is not a newbie friendly OS
because it *IS* for hackers and developers, if you start down the road
of trying to change that you'll end up with NT :-) There's nothing
worse than an unix advocate who thinks it's the greatest OS there is and
everyone should use it. It's not, it's very good for particular tasks,
Windows is the better option for a lot of others.
I've asked this already, what editor does Linux provide by default. People
move from Windows to Linux in droves so if anyone is getting this newbie
stuff right it's the Linux crowd.
This might be an interesting piece of research. My gut feeling is that people
who really want to learn unix are those who have an interest in that sort
of level of admin and casual computer users find it too much work and stick
with windows. Given that breakdown of users the first group tend to not have
any problem learning a new editor.
I'm not arguing from the position that learning vi should be an
initiation procedure for getting into unix, I'm trying to get the point
across that changing the editor isn't going to change the fundamental
nature of what unix is, it just prolongs the point before people
realise what they're getting in to.
Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor)
Elsevier Science TIS online journal project.
Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155